Talk:Wristbands
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The wristbands are bad. Are they?
[Taken off the FAQ page]
Last year's ticket's had a big advantage over those: You were not forced to wear it all day, showing it to everyone. In other words, doesn't this years ticket takes the control over the data "I participate in this congress" from me?
Actually, things are even worse. When I bought my ticket last night, I was offered to have it crimped to my wrist. I declined and was allowed to pass. Today, suddenly it is required to have the ticket crimped to the wrist. If that were publicised previously (at the time of buying the ticket), I'd have thought about leaving. But now, it's too late. I don't like the ticketing scheme at all.
I hate this wristband too. I will go to sleep now and I'd like to take it off. If I tear it off now, will I still get in tomorrow?
Probably not. But you can sleep with them on. You can even shower (that's using one of those contraptions where water comes out of a wall and you get under it undressed and use soap to cleanse yourself) with it, it dries quickly. You can get more of these or wear other bracelets (like the cool RFID-detector one you can make yourself or buy ready-made if you are too lazy) to mask that you are an 23c3 attendee. You won't be out in the world, anyway, during the conference, will you? You can take it off afterwards - or keep it on as a fond memory of the good times you had....
Actually, this answer strikes me as _VERY_ arrogant. I, for my part, absolutely _HATE_ to have anything foreign on my body when I shower and/or sleep. The "ticket" takes that kind of freedom from me. "unwürdig" is the right word in German. Additionally, the ticketing seems to be _very_ laxly handled, I see truckloads of people who do not have their wristband fixed to the body. Looks like I was unlucky with my choice of entrance angel.
The old ticket didn't even need to dry, because it wouldn't even get wet. Do you really think, that "RFID is cool"? If so, you should have commented the various talks on c3 claiming that RFID was bad (when used to track people)... Oh and by the way: I use to leave BCC between midnight and 11 o'clock. To go to bed.
I agree with the criticism -- I mean, what next? Branding? I see the CCC has some interest in keeping pilfering at a minimum, but requiring people to at least temporarily modify their body (and that's what a permanent wristband is about) is completely inacceptable. Really: How much would the CCC lose if they got back to a sane access control?
- "modify their body"?!? How about a reality check?
I'm not against the wristbands. But the some of the angels probably should have been trained better. Mine got applied a bit too tight, so it scrapes a bit. And the angel couldn't wait to do it and grabbed my hand *while* I was putting my wallet into my trouser pocket.
This all are good arguments, but I have exactly the opposite opinion: Look at what the ccc has done in our country - the situation would be much worse without all the work those have done. So, being associated with an ccc event is not something to hide, it's an HONOR. I wear my wristband open in public, and I do so WITH PRIDE. Sure, the band itself, being a physical object, (too tight, getting wet, etc) might be an subject worth of discussion, but not the ideas that stand behind, not the ideals it represents.
- That's not the point. The CCC holds the view, that noone should be forced to offer private information to the world (See hacker ethics). Independant of the idea behind the information. It's a kind of double standard: While the club argues that private information should stay private, it forces all it's visitors to publish some (The information "Yes, I parcitipate in 23C3").
See also https://events.congress.ccc.de/congress/2006/Hacks#oldschool
- Again, that's not the point. In fact, this is an argument against the new tickets, as it shows, that they don't prevent cheating at all.
My oppinion: Wristbands suck big times. Why? Because I simply don't like that scratchy thing. Badges are way more comftable (and easier to loose, by the way. I like that adrenaline rush in the morning when searching the badge. Gets me going). And yes, I miss the stickers. On the last congresses you got them when paying the entrance fee. Didn't find any free stickers this time (doesn't mean that they aren't there, just that theyre badly placed). Oh, and by the way, 5 Euro for the bands that keep badges from falling down (whatever they are called), you must be joking.... The comment at the bottom of https://events.congress.ccc.de/congress/2006/Hacks#oldschool prettymuch sums it up.
Well, I'm a bit torn about this subject. I do understand there should be some control over whether one has paid his entrance fee or not. But is it really necessary to mark one permanently? Some people (especially sopme Angels) had their wristband crimped to their badge or e.g. a well attached part of their clothing. I think this should be perfectly OK, 'cause even if one decieds to give one's jacket to someone else so he can go visit a talk, the other one can't get in in the meantime. And I doubt that a noteworthy number of people do organise to share their jacket. I'm sure the CCC won't lose too much money with that.
- Hello out there, here is the opinion from someone who did some exit and entrance checks. There where some other problems in other years with entrance checks and at the exit (the last hours of the last day).
- It takes time for people to search their badge
- It takes time for people to search their LOST badge (this happened way too often)
- It takes real much more concentration for angels to look to everybody where they have hidden their badge
Because of these problems wristbands on a place where angels expect them are some form of a solution.
Of course I expect the question "why wasn't that other years a problem". Just do the math: 2600:4200. How well does that scale?
To reply some of the wining points of people here:
- Wristbands aren't modifying your body
- Attach it to <part of your clothes> doesn't work because you could forget your jacket in the cloakroom (when going out for a smoke) and all the other parts of clothes aren't an option for people who DO change them on a regular basis.
- Angels who take your hand to check it aren't good. They never should touch you unless you want.
- You can still participate anonymous in the 23C3. Just buy daytickets and trow them away at the exit.
Some other random points:
- Just hack the metal stuff so you pull the badge of your wrist (hey there are tools enough in the BCC to do that).
- And sadly enough for you all there are people in the big blue room outside who just like to get in for free meaning you have to pay more next year.
- Please sign your wining or smalltalk here
- Please run a spellchecker over your text before pressing 'Save Page'. (Not to comment on style, but just to prevent typos.)
And last but not least: Why don't you socialengineer yourself in for free. Are you hackers or aren't you. (And please come up with some better options. I heard wining about badges, about wristbands, nothing to show and much more stuff in the last 9 years).
BugBlue 17:27, 3 January 2007 (CET) - Someone who paid and helped there.
Some responses to BugBlue's comments:
- It takes time for people to search their badge
- It takes time for people to search their LOST badge (this happened way too often)
- It takes real much more concentration for angels to look to everybody where they have hidden their badge
Just how much of a problem were any of these? #1 and #2 sound like problems only for those who are sloppy with their badges. I don't see why these people's problems should be "solved" by imposing unwelcome wristbands on everyone else.
Is #3 really an issue? Isn't it up to the person seeking entry to put it where you can see it?
Of course I expect the question "why wasn't that other years a problem". Just do the math: 2600:4200. How well does that scale?
That doesn't strike me as such a huge difference in the context of checking tickets (unlike the capcity of rooms), but maybe I am being naive as I have never been an angel.
- Attach it to <part of your clothes> doesn't work because you could forget your jacket in the cloakroom (when going out for a smoke) and all the other parts of clothes aren't an option for people who DO change them on a regular basis.
I agree, although I would still prefer this to being compelled to wear it on my wrist, even outside the conference.
- You can still participate anonymous in the 23C3. Just buy daytickets and trow them away at the exit.
Cost of a full ticket: 80 Euros Cost of equivalent day tickets: 4*30 Euros == 120 Euros
Aside from that, as far as I could tell, day tickets too were in the form of wristbands, which could not be removed when leaving the conference for a while. And yes, personally I don't mind displaying the fact that I attend the CCC wherever I go, however I fully understand those who may feel differently, in the same way that I personally have no objection to being photographed at the congress either.
Just hack the metal stuff so you pull the badge of your wrist (hey there are tools enough in the BCC to do that).
This completely invalidates just about every previous point. So why not just use a system that does not make such "hacking" necessary?
And sadly enough for you all there are people in the big blue room outside who just like to get in for free meaning you have to pay more next year.
And these people are not capable of "hacking" the wristband locks?
As far as I can tell, this is really point of using wristbands over tickets/badges. I.e. to prevent "ticket sharing" amoung attendees (If this is not the primary reason, please let me know what is). If this practise should really continue in the coming year, I would appreciate seeings some actual numbers on how the extent of the problem, as well as the methods used to obtain them and similar data on the effectiveness of using wristbands, given their obvious vulnerability to hacking.
The last point would be especially interesting for the *second* year in which they are used, as people will be better prepared to implement hacks.
RiscTaker 18:27, 3 January 2007 (CET)
Oh, one more point: A possible alternative to wristbands without the "non-removability" problem might be identifiers that are removeable, but also *clearly* visible while they are worn (i.e. within the conference), such as the armbands used at The Fifth HOPE in 2004.
RiscTaker 18:32, 3 January 2007 (CET)
Response to risktaker
- 1 and #2 aren't that big problem but those problems take much time (you can filter around 100 people instead of talking to someone who lost his badge and just wants to get in to search/search a friend/whatevah)
and #3 is an issue. Have you ever tried to stand there for 2 or 4 hours letting thousand people in while looking everytime at another place (left, right, up, down, in the wallet, somewhere in the jacket). I guess not, but I did. I guess a waitingline for the entrace for people who already bought a badge as long as the normal cashdesk waitingline would be much more uncool and receive a lot more complaints here.
Cost of a full ticket: 80 Euros Cost of equivalent day tickets: 4*30 Euros == 120 Euros
Nobody told me that privacy hasn't a price. More privacy you can get for free: don't go there. It's always a trade-off.
And no it's not about ticket sharing in my opinion (please mind that I'm not a CCC official or affiliated to the CCC in any way besides from being an angel at the congress).
And for the points like hacking the system. Every system deserves a hack. Even if it's from the CCC. (IHMO offcourse). BugBlue 18:52, 3 January 2007 (CET)
#1 and #2 aren't that big problem but those problems take much time (you can filter around 100 people instead of talking to someone who lost his badge and just wants to get in to search/search a friend/whatevah)
Yes, I can see that. This does sound like a procedural flaw, for which wristbands are at best a partial and clearly much disliked solution. IMO there should be set procedures for dealing with such people, that directs the discussions away from the immediate ticket checking process, such as sending them to the cash desk, where they can acquire a "temporary" ticket in exchange for some sort of deposit. In fact I did actually see somewhat similar issue (person wanted to enter quickly but did not have the full ticket price with him in cash) being dealt with by the cash desk in this manner. However, this is getting into too much detail which isn't on topic here.
and #3 is an issue. Have you ever tried to stand there for 2 or 4 hours letting thousand people in while looking everytime at another place (left, right, up, down, in the wallet, somewhere in the jacket). I guess not, but I did.
You're right I haven't, and if you say that this is a major issue for you, I believe you and hope that it is addressed in some way. Of course I do not agree that non-removable wristbands are an optimal solution here. For one thing, was there any rule against attaching the band to your ankle instead of your wrist?
Nobody told me that privacy hasn't a price. More privacy you can get for free: don't go there. It's always a trade-off.
Of course. It's how far that tradeoff has to go at an event hosted by an organsiation that makes individual privacy one of its primary goals that is under discussion here. IMO an *artificially imposed* 50% price hike for a marginal (there is still the issue of exiting and reentering within the same day) increase in privacy, *for an organisation like the CCC* is simply ludicrous. What would people say if you had to pay 50% more for the priviledge of not being photographed?
And for the points like hacking the system. Every system deserves a hack. Even if it's from the CCC. (IHMO offcourse).
When the hack invalidates the reasons for using the system, what is the purpose of continuing to use it?
--RiscTaker 19:53, 3 January 2007 (CET)
alternative sealing
Since some peaople are allergic to aluminium maybe plastic sealings would be a good idea: Info Page --J4n 22:01, 3 January 2007 (CET)
Plastic wristbands
Yes, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the wristbands used at the Camp and at WTH were all plastic and much more comfortable than those used at 23C3. I would still prefer a system without non-removeable body attachments, but if wristbands are deemed necessary, the plastic ones would be big improvement.
--RiscTaker 11:03, 4 January 2007 (CET)
- I hated that one. They are NOT cool if you sweat a lot, go swimming to a sea and they are genreal stupid for the rough routine of a outdooor festival. i always hat the big fear of loosing it.
--Jojoo 13:59, 7 January 2007 (CET)
